Curse

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

This sounds surprisingly similar to how skills worked in PWE and early beta. That system was fun, but scrapped in favor of the current one for the purposes of game longevity.

The only part you're missing is the skill charm trader and skill rings, but instead of that you're combining the two into signets of capture. Now instead of needing gold to buy a hard-to-find skill charm and skill ring you're proposing you need gold for signets.

Let's call things what they were: that system was great because we only had two days a month to play. It was fast and you could get a good skill collection in less than one beta weekend. Now Guild Wars must cater both to players who want to invest more than one of every fifteen days in playing and those who are casual.

Your system would likely have the same effect. An immediate influx of "fun" through a gold rush on skill-collecting, but then a very defined plateau (having all skills) becomes easier to reach, thus taking potential time off the game.

[ ]

Acan Vishnu · Jun 17, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Why does it need a solution? Whats wrong with the way it is?

If you don't want to use a skill point, do the quest. If you want convenience, buy the skill from a trainer. In my experiance, sure, it'd be dumb for me to use a SoC on a regular skill. So I don't. I save it for when I'm looking for an elite.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it isn't broken, so why should Arena Net spend the time and effort fixing it?

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 17, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

That creates even more grind. Now, not only am I gonna have to go through every mission, but also every explorable area in order to look for bosses and skills. Not to mention everyone will be carrying 1 or 2 SoCs on their skillbar at all times. This isn't a great solution to the skill point system.

You will do that anyway if you want Elite skills as it is the only way to currently get them. But with the current system if you actually use all your points in error, you have to earn upto 20,000xp to gain a skill point to be able to capture any skill with SoC, and erm, you would still get skills from missions and trainer.

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 17, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

Why does it need a solution? Whats wrong with the way it is?

If you don't want to use a skill point, do the quest. If you want convenience, buy the skill from a trainer. In my experiance, sure, it'd be dumb for me to use a SoC on a regular skill. So I don't. I save it for when I'm looking for an elite.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it isn't broken, so why should Arena Net spend the time and effort fixing it?

Quote:

This week we made the first of several steps towards improving the process of gaining skills and skill points after ascension. In coming weeks, we will continue on this path, and will work to address the difficulty of unlocking items and runes for use in PvP.

Taken directly from GuildWars website / patch update notes.
A.net aimed to create an instant action CORPG, they are actually aware that the current system takes away the instant part, and past ascention the game can actually lean towards what they actually didn't want to create. A standard PvE, with grind. So it is actually a large chunk of the community who have suggested / posted similar thread. It isn't broken, but is far from ideal and A.net have accepted this and are working towards a better system.

codemonkey · Jun 17, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

That creates even more grind. Now, not only am I gonna have to go through every mission, but also every explorable area in order to look for bosses and skills. Not to mention everyone will be carrying 1 or 2 SoCs on their skillbar at all times. This isn't a great solution to the skill point system.

Well I agree, its not a great solution. But the definition of "grind" seems to consistently be referred to as "playing a game." Grind does not define "having to go through every mission", "explore", etc. That's called "an RPG."

Under that presumption the fact that I have to go on quests, and missions is an "experience grind" ;-) I can see it now: "I like GW except for the fact that it makes me level up, run quests, do missions, upgrade my armor, watch cinametics, and get skills and advancements."

CodeMonkey

Odai · Jun 17, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

It seems to me that this is nothing more than the old PvP -vs- PvE argument.

Codemonkey said:
Well I agree, its not a great solution. But the definition of "grind" seems to consistently be referred to as "playing a game." Grind does not define "having to go through every mission", "explore", etc. That's called "an RPG."

Under that presumption the fact that I have to go on quests, and missions is an "experience grind" ;-) I can see it now: "I like GW except for the fact that it makes me level up, run quests, do missions, upgrade my armor, watch cinametics, and get skills and advancements."

----------
Why would a PvE type complain about runing allov ethe place, doing missions and quests? The skill rerwards are nothing more than away of keeping score.
I can undrsdtand why a PvP type would not appreciate the beautiful landscape and the
other natural wonders the programmers put into the game.
However this particular game has provide a method for the PvP crowd to bypass all the "grind" or in non-game speak "play the game".
PvP can creatre their ultimate skill set wiothout all the game play interfering.
OH! Wait maybe they can't.
Why not just put the magic button in the PvP creatoiopn sequesce and give that character all the skills? I certaintly don't care how the other player got there; I know how I got there.

Some of the things I'm still not clear on:

Why does a PvP person want to play - sorry grind- the game when that person can get a completed toon day 1?

Is the 200 skillpoint cap a limit on how many you have in inventory at one time or is it a limit to how many your toon can earn throughout the entire game play. Seems that a 200 spending limit would rule out adding new skills in future releases.

Who says there aren't enough bosses to get the elite skills from. Is there anyone saying this that has actually been through the entire map? Explored every area? Found every random spawn that had every combinaton of skills?

From what I've ben able to find out (ther is sdtill a lot I yet to ferrit out) it is possible to change your secondary profession whenever you want - once you've done the required mission(s) - I believe thats 4 missions- so you can learn every single skill available in the game. I've read at least one post from a player stating that that was his goal.

Enlioghten me. Let me know what I missed.
Please bear in mind that I really don't care how a player develops their character.

Granamyr · Jun 17, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Right, but this thread is deceptive. It didn't so much offer a position as ask people to attack it.

I like making deceptive threads. Your average joe comes in thinking it's an easy question to answer and gets hit with a somewhat more complex argument. It makes people think......well, some people. Unfortunately, most of the Guru elite bypass it thinking that answering the question is beneath them. It's a trade-off, like anything.

If this thread doesn't offer a position then what are you attacking? Or to be specific, what exactly am I "asking people to attack"?

Quote:

If you take a bar with seven signets of capture and resurrect, are you playing? If your guildies are power-dragging you to capture skills, are you playing?

No, it isn't but that already happens now. This game is built around the team/guild. There isn't a system that a large guild or coordinated team can't bypass or exploit. Judging an idea based on what the elite can do to bypass/exploit it is hardly good policy. It's that kind of thinking that caused them to kill the drop rate which was definitely not well-received.

Quote:

If you start to encourage free-range capping what stops players from taking four signets? Six?

The system itself prohibits this because there are maybe two, usually one, unique skills per boss. Combined with the fact that the boss needs to be of your primary/secondary class, random boss spawns, random spawn locations and four skill capture runs become quite rare. Six, practically impossible. You know this as well as I do. It must have been a "test argument".....did I pass?

It is reasonable to expect that most of the community would play the game as intended even if the Signet of Capture were implemented. It is also reasonable to expect that those who abuse current systems, will abuse mine. In the end though, it would foster more positives than negatives and that's the lens through which you should judge its worth.

Quote:

I'm all for argument and discussion, but that's not what this thread has evolved into.

So what is it then? I thought we were all arguing and discussing....what suddenly changed? The key players here keep bringing something to the table and those that don't have already dropped off. Why stop? Tell me you're not enjoying yourself reading over your carefully crafted words. This thread is what fan forums were made for. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to pull out some weeds.....

Quote:

Granamyr, you have no argument here. ... No argument at all.

And yet we've been able to fill up 5 pages of non-argument. Simply amazing. I'll re-state it and spare you the trouble of having to read any of the last few pages:

The Signet of Capture is not consistent with all other skills bought from the skill trainer nor is it consistent with the "risk vs reward" of skill quests.
1. The skill trainer trains you in a skill for a sum of gold and one skill point. In this case, the trainer trains you how to capture a skill. If this were consistent with ALL OF THE OTHER SKILLS, you would never lose the ability you were just taught. Thus, the SoC is inconsistent with the rest of the skills and should be fixed.
2. It costs neither gold nor skill points to accept a quest to go kill a boss monster and you are rewarded with xp and a couple skills. It costs you both gold and skill points to acquire a signet of capture, do the exact same task, and are rewarded with only one skill. Inconsistency.

Quote:

Let them take some time and work without sweeping major changes.

This is hardly a big change. It's literally changing a 1 to a 0.

Quote:

As for signets of capture not costing skill points...it offers just as many problems as it seemingly solves.

Can you list out what you think are the realistic problems this would create as well as any realistic benefits you see? At this point in the thread, people tend to skip paragraphs and I am probably the most guilty at being overly verbose. That said, I'll try to do the same on my end.

stumpy · Jun 17, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

With the recent update of capping 20,000 xp on level 20's to gain another skill point make your thread out of date now. Whats so hard about aquiring skills now? 20,000 xp can be obtained from fissure in less than 30 minutes with your guildies who powered you through ... kiss the grind away

Making them free isn't worth it ... nor is making the non elite skills free as 'they already come free' in quests. So instead of having your guildies power level you through the game (which is not the way it was intended to be played) ... go get them for free and save your skill points. I ascended with 24 skill points still available on my first character ... impatience is petty, lack of understanding the game is tunnel vision, and this game is easy enough currently to attain them all anyways so why make an easy game easier?

It is an interesting topic to raise but I dont believe it should ever be implemented. (Okay so say they do and you get your wish, then what ...)

a. Everybody leaves guildwars because now not only is it a free game for lil tony the 13 year old to play with out having his daddy pay spamming fu wtf omg i f'in rule u all are pwned kizz my a--, hey baby give me -------' ... now you rectify that this game was madde for irresponsible n00bs by saying hey, here is a free game and all your skills handed on a silver platter what you do now is your choice .... (much too easy for any knowledgable strategist to waste there money on)

or b. guildwars has decided to make this game super uBer easy for all you, ... and sesame street goes bankrupt ...

This game is easy ... in fact I believe they made it that way so it requires next to nothing to acquire all skills already ... (you only have to do it once so suck it up princess!)

I dont in any way mean for anyone to take offense to my post, I just mean to drill in the fact that this is already an easily attainable goal and if you are having issues with it ... well ... lets just say 'the game engine is fine'

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

The Signet of Capture is not consistent with all other skills bought from the skill trainer nor is it consistent with the "risk vs reward" of skill quests.

1. The skill trainer trains you in a skill for a sum of gold and one skill point. In this case, the trainer trains you how to capture a skill. If this were consistent with ALL OF THE OTHER SKILLS, you would never lose the ability you were just taught. Thus, the SoC is inconsistent with the rest of the skills and should be fixed.

This is sort of like saying Vengeance is inconsistant with the other resurrect abilities because it doesn't permanently resurrect its target. The skill explains what it does...and it does what it says. Technically you'd be correct, but the skill is meant to work as advertised.

The signet of capture is meant to be a unique skill, with a specific purpose...which technically does make it inconsistant. I guess I still fail to see why this needs to be changed. As I stated earlier, Arcane Thievery explains that it's not permanent. Should it be made permanent for consistancy with signet of capture?

If you want the problem "solving the inconsistancy of SoC" would cause, here it is: Signet of Capture would then be inconsistant in allowing players to acquire *any* skill without skill points. It would penalize players who buy skills before signets are available and penalize players who buy skills to be immediately effective. It would undermine the skill quest system, if not completely replace it (and thus a fair portion of the content ANet's worked on). Currently there are many skills you explicitly cannot quest for, many of which are very powerful. Changing this system (and I'm assuming something here, that you'd want Signets of Capture offered earlier) would mean having to re-balance bosses not to use skills before players are supposed to be able to aquire them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

2. It costs neither gold nor skill points to accept a quest to go kill a boss monster and you are rewarded with xp and a couple skills. It costs you both gold and skill points to acquire a signet of capture, do the exact same task, and are rewarded with only one skill. Inconsistency.

This isn't a fair comparison. Skill quests and Signets of Capture are not the same thing, so acting as though they were will of course lead you to find "inconsistancies". In some ways they lead to the same result, but they are not equivalents. Here are a few I've found:

* You *can't* quest for all skills, but you *can* capture any skill you don't know.
* You *can't* choose your reward from a quest. You *can* capture any skill you can learn with your primary or secondary class.
* Amusingly enough, you *can* quest for a signet of capture, thereby spending neither gold nor skill points on a signet though likely spending more in exp/gold questing for it than for buying it.
* You *can't* quest for an elite skill. You *can* capture any elite skill either of your professions can use.

You also have to spend time completing quests--time you could be spending on earning more skill points (which can be faster than doing some quests), earning more gold (if you don't quest with a small party of other players, your drops aren't going to be that great), or even doing something profitable like trading/auctioning or PvPing.

[ ]

Ginko · Jun 17, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Technically, you are getting a skill when you buy it. All signets are skills. This is as true of SoC as it is for Dolyak Signet, Signet of Judgement, etc.

You misunderstood, his comment was that they cant be used to enhance your party or hurt your foes. It's wasting a space until you kill a boss.

--Ginko

codemonkey · Jun 17, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

I dont in any way mean for anyone to take offense to my post, I just mean to drill in the fact that this is already an easily attainable goal and if you are having issues with it ... well ... lets just say 'the game engine is fine'

I don't agree fully with the idea of free skill pointed SoC's, but somehow I also don't agree with your assessment that it makes the game easier...just makes it different.

The Wilds Mission: Not Easy.
Getting through the black curtain: Not Easy
Reading a post that's 90% flame: Priceless.

CodeMonkey

Raiddinn Beatdropper · Jun 17, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Just make a Skill point trader, he sells skill points at say 5k per.

That way if you are going to go grind the exp, I am sure you will get $ on the way, which will at least double the benefit of the grind that is going to be forced on you anyway.

Also, as many people who want to sit there and grind out every skill..

There are way more people who look at that EXP bar and say * I would love to get that skill to say I did it, but there is no way in **LL I am grinding for that...*

At which point they go ahead and quit.

Oh and Put in my vote for a 100k uber signet of capture that you can use infinate times, woo woo gold sink !

No Really, 100k signet.

Tsunamii Starshine

theclam · Jun 17, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Signet of Capture should cost 5k and require 3 skill points, but you should have access to it forever.

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 18, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

I'd better be clear about a few points.
A, There are enough Boss's to capture all Elites, but not all normal skills. And even if there was, to actually capture all skills using a FoC SoC would actually take longer than questing / purchasing skills. Why because you can only capture 1 skill per dead boss and each boss only has upyo 5 skills max. You would literally Have to explore everywhere 2 or 3 times.

B, After you have finished the story and the missions the only thing left is to collect skill points and mop up remaining skills, it is at this point after you have done the "game RPG" that it becomes a grind. That is actually the arguement put forward by PvP and PvE players who have finished the game a few times.

C, The 200 point skill point cap is currently based on what skills points you earn through HoH PvP,exploring / farming xp, quests. Skills given through quests don't count only if they award a skill point like the coop missions do. This also means that to learn all skills is impossible, even if you are given 10 skills foc for each of the remaining 4 classes, it still means you would need 240 points min (not exact).

D, This is not a PvP vs PvE arguement. Simple fact is the PvE is actually 100 hours at a push to actually complete / explore and capture all elites for 2 proffessions, then at that point there is nothing to do, bar try gaining skills for a different secondary or start agains, and thats if you are PvE. A friend put it across best, the PvE is actually a 60-70 hour distraction from the main GvG / PvP game. Whilest 100 hours is alot for a single player game, for a MMORPG it is very poor. Hence, why it is called Guild Wars not mega quest 2005.

I have yet to play PvP, basically because PvP doesn't interest me, PvE does, but for such a short game, It needs more "Fun" injecting at the end, simply because unlike a single player it doesn't end, but the games actually feels like it does and leave you with little else to do. With a easier system for gaining skills after completing story / missions would atleast offer insentive and reward back to the game.
If your idea of reward is killing creatures for 20xp till you have earned 20,000 xp so you can gain a skillpoint so you can go out and capture a skill, then repeat, I would suggest that other PvE MMORPG games would be more suited to your gameplay style than Guild Wars. From what the developers have stated in interviews, press releases and patch notes, this is not what they want Guild Wars to be or it to be remember for it.
I am not bothered if it is easier or harder, just that rewards can be received with less grind after game completion/ascention, and that capturing skills for secondary classes is a viable option, and that It is possible to have the option of changing secondary classes with the safe knowledge that you have / can have a decent selection of skills to chose from.
As CodeMonkey put it, it wouldn't make the game easier, just different.
** 20xp per kill is based on taking a full party, and not solo farming. Solo farming can reward 200xp per kill, but I beleive A.net are actually amending the balance so that it is simply not a viable option. Each patch they make the easy kills harder and make farming less viable, by mixing up the spawns in most cases.

Deathlord · Jun 18, 2005, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

I like making deceptive threads. Your average joe comes in thinking it's an easy question to answer and gets hit with a somewhat more complex argument. It makes people think......well, some people. Unfortunately, most of the Guru elite bypass it thinking that answering the question is beneath them. It's a trade-off, like anything.

If this thread doesn't offer a position then what are you attacking? Or to be specific, what exactly am I "asking people to attack"?

Either I'm one of the average joe's or there is no real complex arguement at all.
There have been dozens of reasons on why it would be cool and why it would stink. None matter because that's not what skill points are about. Something that impacts this game as large as skill points won't kill or improve the game if it's modified, but it'll change the type of game it was meant to be. So no matter how persuasive a reason that may come up, there's no reason to get into any heated debate because of it.

Evisicator · Aug 05, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

Not really, basically each skill you use could add to you skill point tally / earned. Once you hit 190 skill points, traders would have to monitor how many SoC you have and how many you could buy. Would not be hard, and I cant see many players actually reaching the 200 skill point cap this side of christmas.

Well hate to burst your bubble but I got 165 skillpoints so far and its a long ass ways to X-mas.

Also I have had 7 elites skills loadedinto my skillbar at once. That means I carried 6 SoCs and One Elite and One other skill. I don't know why ppl think its so hard to Cap. Most capping is done with henches. Also Everyplace you cap other than the few skills in the desert is done with a party of 8 so if One person by chance does nothing at all and you still cant kill a monk boss then your problem lies in the fact that your party is pitiful.
Why Because few monks do damge in the 1st place and most parties carry 2 or 3 monks in groups of 8. So that means you are killing these same monk bosses with only 5 ppl doing any real dmg. Yes I know a monk can shoot his stick or can smite.

Granamyr · Aug 08, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Thanks for the rez although I can't make much sense of your post? What inspired you to make it?

With the addition of faction, this issue has been indirectly addressed. That and experience scrolls however the scrolls go largely unused leading me to believe my suggestion would have been a much better solution. (Completely unbiased here, obviously.)

The only argument against such a change is that there will be unintended consequences which is a risk you run with any change. The known positives far outweigh the speculative negatives.